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Is it where Microsoft hides second GPU inside Xbox One?
я
misterxmedia
Mistercteam: Analyisis about XBOX 1 actually bigger than 363 mm^2, also why MS said
363mm^2 is only for MainSOC

some backup data
- X1 MS claim X1 Main SOC = 363mm^2 = ~ 5 Billion
- 7970 is 365 mm^2
- Both 7970 and X1 use chip pacakaging that industri standard, that why you can perfectly match the rectangle area (Chip pacakaging dimension is the same but die area is not)

original source of image
-http://www.overclockers.ua/video/amd-radeon-hd7970-asus-dc2/15-big-amd-radeon-hd7970-asus-dc2.jpg
-http://content.hwigroup.net/images/products/xl/133573-34.jpg
-http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/img/pcw/docs/612/762/01.jpg

First ReProcessed image source to make it same orientation and mark the rectagle area for overlay purposes:
*) to make it more openly i provide the source

7970
http://i.imgur.com/n8fx5cd.jpg

XB1
http://i.imgur.com/wpjZHEX.jpg

7970 rotate 45 degress
http://i.imgur.com/88Ho4ei.jpg

7970+X1 overlay each other plus reposition the X1 mark to 7970 die
http://i.imgur.com/KRQTuQK.jpg


Now Using Ruler tool
the 7970 --> 363-365 mm^2
the XB1 is suprisingly 522-525 mm^2
Basically there are 175 mm^2 space for something

All below assumption and further analysis is based on
remaining Transistor is for dGPU, also the dGPU SRAM already moved to MainSOC -> 47MB remember (more than 32MB, as 11-12 MB are for dGPU probably)
so with assumption all remaining Transistor budget for dGPU or Custom DX 11.2 or VI tech
then let we see. (remember 30-40% of 7970 for example is for SRAM budget, so 1792-2048 ALU without L2 SRAM takes less transistor budget than 4 billion of 7970)

so Analysis of 175mm^2

1st assumption 175 mm^2 is 28nm too (TSMC cowos can intermixed node process)
-> 175mm^2 without SRAM means : 2-3 Billion transitor enough for 1792-2048 ALU

2nd assumption 175 mm^2 is 20nm (die made from Glofo 20nm)
-> 175 mm^2 --> ~ 4Billion enough for 2304-2560 ALU

with SRAM & small CPU
--> 28nm => 1152-1280 ALU
--> 20nm -> 1792-2048 ALU

Imagine with 3D stack W2W

the good thing
it is 100% sure that 5 Billion is only for Main SOC, and MS still not tell the other transistor budget

My Own specualtion:
In my believe that probably it is only 2.5D COWOS and not full 3D but with above explanation who complaint, even with lower estimation the dGPU still pack > 3TF
but if W2W well damn.

Also explain why China rumor said 384bit --> radeon 8880 --> 1792/2048 ALU future GPU
also why pastebin listed as 20-26CU, 2.5-3TF

Interesting

Heat

(Anonymous)

2013-08-28 03:35 pm (UTC)

With a config like this, how would you transfer the generated heat to the outside?

you forgot, look at Nvidia GTX 780/titan
575mm^2 --> 7 Billion

Virtex -> 600 mm^2 --> 7 Billion


Thats why MS use HPM, and it is COWOS
probably the dGPU is 20nm build on GLofo or 22nm SOI glofo

So at last a confirmation MS still not tell the whole story :)

mistercteam

2013-08-28 03:41 pm (UTC)

With lowered expectation from various possibility
even if all without W2W
the result pointed out to dGPU pack > ~3TF

with 20nm --> dGPU will pack like MrX insider and Parasite > 4TF+
with w2w just wow

But even with lowered expectation (3TF dGPU)
combined APU+dGPU will pack > 4TF (no complaint here)

also remember it is 100% utilization of raw power
to translate to PC or PS4 without 100% utilization
(remember PC is 50-60 utilization, PS4 is 60-70)

basically compare to PC , 4TF of X1 = >6TF of PC (1.5x) (result of using 100% utilization)

Also to add, 7970 is inteded for guestimate the transistor budget, dgpu will not 7xxx

mistercteam

2013-08-28 04:24 pm (UTC)

dgpu certainly will use New GPU tech, at lest VI, or DX 11.2+
above explanation using 7970, is to show about estimation of transistor budget

as we know, 7970 is 4 billion with 11-12MB SRAM
so without it it only takes 2.5-3 Billion T,

Even if dGPU exists, does MS have time to fight FUD?

(Anonymous)

2013-08-28 04:37 pm (UTC)

I really worried that if MS have dGPU to show they can be to late to revealing it by having to wait for September end. Systems will launch 1st-2nd week of November. Can MS reverse 8 months of FUD being spread every day?

Look at Sony fanboys on here. The Xb1 MainSOC probably more power than PS4 APU yet they on hear repeating things been shown not true months ago... They even worst on other forums...Sony got MS between a hard place with public perception...

Re: Even if dGPU exists, does MS have time to fight FUD?

mistercteam

2013-08-28 05:26 pm (UTC)

ah check the repeating bad news for PS4

look at this neogaf thread
about where is PS4 retail ?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=663625

about Crashing PS4 games show Windows Vista PC version

Also people dissapointed with BF4 sony 16 player

then on Driveclub & Knack

All Bad press for X1 is still there but PS4 start to get some of it
it is a Karma, you overhype it using Lies, it will bites you soon

remember this image,1st image i made for XB1 die size approxmation 3-4 month ago (suprisingly close)

mistercteam

2013-08-28 05:45 pm (UTC)

1st guestimate after wired teardown, suprisingly close with my recent comparison.
http://i.imgur.com/el02J8c.jpg


This time we got over the top picture
also dont forget check the capacitor scaling it is match.

of course before proper overlaying it we have to scale it to same rectangle area & course we have to maintain aspect ratio

i am not just scaling without proper knowledge to do it
i am already done this before for guestimate other GPU die size

and what make it more easier this time is
7970 & XB1 have same TSMC chip packaging size
(not die size , but outer chip packaging the one that die size will mounted to)


Edited at 2013-08-28 05:53 pm (UTC)

Re: remember this image,1st image i made for XB1 die size approxmation 3-4 month ago (suprisingly cl

rwilmarth

2013-08-28 05:59 pm (UTC)

there is no question that there is 150 to 200 mm2 extra space. just enough for a dgpu.

"I built out 7 cinematic shots for Crytek's Xbox One title: "Ryse, Son of Rome"

These shots will be used for Marketing purposes in September 2013.

For these shots I was provided an asset library of props, character models, animations, particle effects, and pre-existing game levels. All of which were in various different levels of completion. My job was to go from a pre visualized concept of what the shot was suppose to be, with text as a placeholder for the action I was to create. For each shot, there was also motion control data at the beginning, which corresponded with live action "developer" which was composited into the beginning of the shot filmed with the Red Epic™ Camera up against a blue screen. I then hand animated the rest of the camera movement.

On some shots, pre-existing cinematics were utilized for sections of the action, and mixed with action I put together, which took around an average of 7 days for each shot to be build out. There was a large mixture of hand animation which I did right in the Engine, and Pre-animated characters, which I needed to edit together several animations and offset timings and such to build out larger things like intelligent battle formations, crowd battle scenes, or kill somebody specific with a flaming arrow, which would have been hand keyed.

The action in the shots included custom keyed Archer volleys, Catapult explosions with Units getting blown up. Battle formations, custom Prop keyed animation, Camera Animation including Depth of Field to guide the viewers eye. Particle Effect creation, modification, & improvement for such things like birds flocking, flaming arrows, & explosions; scene lighting changes, additions, & lighting caused by effects. I also rendered all of the scenes at 2k res @ 60fps."

http://www.linkedin.com/in/ericruskoski

Edited at 2013-08-28 06:21 pm (UTC)

good find
also September ? hmmm

interesting why bothering 60FPS ?
unless somehow Ryse will be 60 FPS ?

also make me wonder why Ryse at xbox one site
are if i am correct is 2K
not 1080p, but 2K resolution

interesting

Edited at 2013-08-28 06:31 pm (UTC)

OK lets we target another clue on CHIP themselves, look at Diffused Taiwan, made in Malaysia

mistercteam

2013-08-28 07:09 pm (UTC)

I already have some guessing that make this much better news

Taiwan is logical for Fab like TSMC , etc

hmmm I am not aware there is TSMC plant at Malaysia nor Samsung nor Glofo

or probably i just not found out yet from google
looking at their corporate web , hmmm this is interesting

TSMC seems dont have Malaysia Factory ?

Edited at 2013-08-28 07:10 pm (UTC)

MisterC, if you dont bother, some personal question.

You are developer or insider? or what?

I'm very impressed with your tech knowledge.

I am previously doing some coding stuff in my earlier days also have backgound in comp engineering from my uni. But Now my current work is for industrial log system and overseer some small team for mobile phone dev.

After looking the potential of Windows 8 ecosystem, maybe later on after have more time, probably i will try to code again by myself but probably later on :)

But mostly i am just ,easy to spot something interesting and connecting the dot and doing some logical thinking.

just an idea...nothing more

ext_1791110

2013-08-28 11:04 pm (UTC)

Mistercteam, what do you think about this:

tinyurl(.)com/o9qbb8f

Lets assume 24CU are true, they could use 12CU for GPGPU and 12CU for rendering.

architect panel (after reveal event): "...GPU does 768ops/s..." => true (the first 12CU)

hotchips: "... 1.3TFlops for GPGPU ..." => true (the second 12CU)

Re: just an idea...nothing more

rwilmarth

2013-08-28 11:21 pm (UTC)

I don't think what you have circled in the picture is compute units or esram.

But you could be right about the 24 cu,s 12 and 12 would mean that technically they have told the truth.

TO ALL SONY TROLL BOYS

ext_1787129

2013-08-28 11:22 pm (UTC)

Do not come here if you think The Order 1886 trailer is Gameplay instead of CGI. If you think that, do not even comment here. Instead read this article about it, and educate yourself.
Gamescom: Technology Goes Victorian in PS4’s The Order: 1886
But where is the actual game?
http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/08/22/gamescom-technology-meets-antiquity-in-ps4s-the-order-1886

NO ONE HAS SEEN THIS GAME! PERIOD

Re: TO ALL SONY TROLL BOYS

josefajardo

2013-08-28 11:55 pm (UTC)

totally agree... this is the only game I am really looking forward to for PS4 and yet haven't seen game play..

Thou I am cautiously optimistic BUT i'm preparing myself for disappointment :)

2ND GPU REFRESH FOR SONY TROLL BOYS

ext_1787129

2013-08-29 12:44 am (UTC)

Before you get started on your ad hominem attacks on this thread at the strong think tank called Misterxmedia check the base facts of the discussion.
-------
HINT 1= THE CHIP IS CALLED MAIN SOC (EMPHASIS ON MAIN)
-------
HINT 2= ON SOC COMPONENTS http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/img/pcw/docs/612/762/05.jpg
AND ON GPU AND GPU MMU CLIENTS http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/img/pcw/docs/612/762/10.jpg
THERE IS AN INTERSECTION CALL HOST/GUEST GPU MMU
SO WERE WE SHOWN THE HOST GPU? OR THE GUEST GPU?
Look at a two hard drive pc, it has a master and a slave. These charts hint at another GPU.
----------
HINT 3= THERE ARE 4 COMMAND PROCESSORS, TWO COMPUTE AND TWO GRAPHICS.
This is double the amount for only One GPU.
---------------
HINT 4= dGPU (d is for discrete ) would be seperate from The APU's GPU. Even though chatter on the web considers a second graphics processor in the XBOX ONE nonsense , hint 1,2 and 3 point to it. But in this 4th HINT i can show you who was working on an APU/dGPU SETUP at AMD with public documentation.
SEE FOR YOURSELF
dGPU not mentioned at HOTCHIPS.ORG but may exist according to AMD GPU Engineer Linkedin PG
Vinber Lei
GPU Design Verification Engineer at AMD
Graphics Core IP Design Verification,APU/DGPU
Xbox One,Playstation 4
http://www.linkedin.com/in/vinberlei

------------------------------------
If you think we all can learn from your objective comments please add in. If you have a question, MC Misterxmedia or Professor Mistercteam or one of their students will assist you.Other wise sit down ,shut up, listen and learn.
PLEASE DO NOT TROLL!

Edited at 2013-08-29 12:47 am (UTC)

Re: 2ND GPU REFRESH FOR SONY TROLL BOYS

mistercteam

2013-08-29 03:09 am (UTC)

yes the Vinberlei suggesting APU & dGPU like we starting to discover
i have some other linked profiles that will make some intersting observation

I am not Prof :)
I am Just like you remember

Some info about X1 pass FCC even before PS4.... hmmm

mistercteam

2013-08-29 03:08 am (UTC)

http://www.videogamer.com/news/xbox_one_passed_fcc_certification_before_ps4.html

Xbox One passed FCC certification "earlier this summer before PS4", Microsoft's Larry Hryb has revealed, suggesting that the console had been further along in the production cycle than Sony's platform.


Re: Some info about X1 pass FCC even before PS4.... hmmm

josefajardo

2013-08-29 03:36 am (UTC)

very cool ...

WARFACE ANNOUNCED FOR XBOX 360

ext_1787129

2013-08-29 03:26 am (UTC)

This means XB1 may get it later
360 TRAILER
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYv61ewejqk

OTHER PLAYLIST
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL914g_i5bwjF64xvi-GZDZID8hg3I92Lp

Crytek announces Warface for Xbox 360 - but not Xbox One
Free-to-play shooter coming early 2014

http://www.oxm.co.uk/61244/crytek-announces-warface-for-xbox-360-but-not-xbox-one/

YES!

Open your eyes people

N0mad5

2013-08-29 04:48 am (UTC)

"The PS4 CU and the Durango CUs are directly comparable because they come from the same

vendor and is of same generation. The PS4 APU has 18 CUs, 10 of which are for rendering and 8

are for OpenCL compute tasks. The Durango GPU has 12 CUs, all of which are dedicated to

graphics rendering. Microsoft chip's secret sauce is in the CPU whose FPU is much more powerful

than the Jaguar's FPU and run compute tasks directly on the CPU instead of CU shaders."


"The Xbox 360 CPU suffered from horrible 500 cycle stalls(Worse than CELL's stall) upon an L2

cache miss. The Xbox One CPU has wonderful 32 eSRAM to make that L2 cache miss only a few

cycle stall. Furthermore the Xbox One's CPU cores are "Microsoft Custom" with 6 ops/cycle, vs 4

ops cycle normal "Jaguar" used in the PS4 APU. The difference is that while the Xbox One does its

physics on the CPU, the PS4 offloads them to the 4 Compute Only CUs."

"the eSRAM is not directly managed by a programmer; it is managed at the OS virtual memory

manager and should be invisible to a programmer. It is sort of like virtual memory; frequently

accessed main memory pages are mapped to eSRAM pages. Developers need not worry. "

"Less heat generation due to lots of CU idling(Xbox One's CU's run at near 100% efficiency due to

eSRAM) and low power Jaguar Cores(Xbox One's 6-ops/cycle "Microsoft Custom" CPU is 50%

wider)."

"Games won't have anything other than a tree-traversal based AI this gen unless you outsource it to

cloud like Microsoft's proposing."

"That, no one's worried because of the heavy optimization on the Xbox One's GPU. The embedded

memory historically has done wonders for console graphics, making it twice as efficient as a GPU

relying on external memory."

"Why you may not see the PS4 outrunning the Xbox One in multiplatform games.

1. GDDR5 : GDDR5 is a high-latency memory which is particularly bad for CPUs where an L2

cache miss will result in a stall of hundreds of cycles, especially since there is a memory contention

with the GPU. The Xbox One not only has lower-latency DDR3 to begin with, but the CPU can

access data from memory faster because there is less memory contention to main memory thanks to

the eSRAM.

2. PS4 has only 14 graphics CUs vs 12 graphics CUs for the Xbox One : Contrary to a popular

misconception it is not 18 vs 12, but 14 vs 12 because the PS4's CU is 14 graphics + 4 compute

only CUs. Couple this with the effect of eSRAM and the Xbox One may actually outrun the PS4 in

graphics performance. The PS4 will definitely outdo the Xbox One in physics heavy games, but not

in regular kind of games.

3. Xbox One has dedicated Kinect processing hardware, while the PS4 must use 4 Compute CUs for

the next-generation Move censor processing : The Xbox One has a definite edge over the PS4 in

motion sensor based games where the PS4 versions will slow down."

"The Xbox 360 suffered from a 500 cycle latency in case of an L2 cache miss which in turn caused a CPU stall, and this problem was particularly worse for the Xbox 360 than the PS3 because of GDDR3 with high latency. The problem was so bad that IBM included L2 cache prefetch instructions in the Xbox 360 CPU instruction set, so that the compiler can schedule the L2 cache load.

With the Xbox One's memory set up, the CPU L2 cache can be filled quickly due to the combination of eSRAM removing 90% of GPU bandwidth requirement and low-latency DDR3, while the PS4 APU's CPU cores will now stall like the Xbox 360's CPU cores did due to a bandwidth contention with the GPU and the high latency of the GDDR5 memory." - This is why sony does not bother talking about the cpu:) Every interview they praise the gpu and EVER/RARELY talk about the cpu? who cares about a stupid cpu right?

Re: Open your eyes people

fireborn321

2013-08-29 05:02 am (UTC)

interesting points you got there.

1. the die size is bigger than 360mm^2, it is using 2 different source from wired teardown it is also resulted almost the same size, using over the top and same Foundry TSMC for comparing resulted more accurate comparison

2. >170mm^2 is for something

3. 6 COiltronics provide more than enough for 100-250W, the same as CHina Leak and Arthur Geis, and Insider it is >180W

4. Separate power plane, if it was one huge SOC, it will only labeled as one, and wont need separate power plane at all

5. The HPM, this is confirmation that the Custom Jaguar will clocked above 2 Ghz (insider said this since beginning) in fact look at TSMC pdf, the HPM is for 2-2.5 Ghz on normal operating voltage

6. The eDRAM/eSRAM is actually > 200GB/sec not 100 GB/sec like Vgleak

7. MS somehow manages to pack more transistor per mm^2 just comparison
-AMD 360 mm^2 = ~4Bil
-MS 360 mm^2 = ~5Bil
it is with the idea that if they focusig the other 170mm^2 for ALU oriented cores it pack more transistor compare to standard GPU that must share with 6T or 8T transistor that not too condensed per mm^2

7. The XB use hardware coherency natively not just for GPU<-->CPU but for all Accelearator too, infact both X1 and IBM Power8 share same vision

8. The Use Of High Spec PC devkit sugest the performance is more than what we already know
-Remember when AT E3 some of FOrza & Deadrising are run on High end 79xx PC, later on it is running on X1
-Remember lococycle incident, when lococyle demoed on GTX 7xx GPU, later on on Gamescom it is running natively and happily on X1

Interesting

so microsoft attends the hot chips symposium at stanford and deceives the attending scientists and hardware specialists with deliberately wrong powerpoint slides? sounds reasonable...

If you have an NDA, yes. There is information that MS is not allowed by AMD to talk about some specifics until 29th sept. The date indicates some relations to AMDs newest GPU architectures. Information was listed by 2 different independent sources: parasite76 and insider. of course no official confirmations, but based on the track record of predictions those sources can be trusted, especially parasite76.

Great work in explaining this possible rumor. I do think it's odd that they haven't exactly detailed all the specs in the XB1. I understand the NDA but why would MS agree to a sept 29th date and not earlier so they can promote this? Also, I get why they are giving away Fifa since they had to delay release but why fall back on DRM, Always on, Kinect, etc. if you know that wont matter in the end because you have the powerful system? Why no leaks?

If this is true....

(Anonymous)

2013-08-31 05:09 pm (UTC)

If this is true then even PC gamers will have to get an XBOX One lol, including me.

What would you think about a "Physics Chipset" custom designed by Microsoft instead of a second GPU??

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